Curse

tanwarv · Aug 22, 2005, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I see that we do agree on many levels. However, I believe you truly don't understand why I play this game (and also why I farm).

I farm because I enjoy it! It's fun to take out my pent up frustrations on a huge mob of bad guys without fear of dying. It's truly fun for me to see what items I can find. I like the challenge of trying to farm unconventional things like coldfires. When I farm the UW, I keep all the storm bows and eternal shields I find and then go to international districts and give them all away for free. I like that feeling of being able to make someone's day a little happier. I play only PvE and may never try PvP. I never plan on buying fissure armor, I just like to collect cool things to give them away. I've played City of Heroes for a long time too. I left because they severely nerfed controller powers (because someone thought they we too uber and complained). I just end up resenting people who think they need to stop my way of playing the game, just because they don't like to play the game in the same way.

If everyone is enjoying themselves, why take harsh action against one group? It does seem all too often that pure and simple jealousy ruins many a game. Can't we all just get along and do the things that we find fun?

Koroh · Aug 22, 2005, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Last reply on this subject, although I'm sure your reply will tempt me.

If you want to get into real life, then let's go there. We're all losing, most people just don't realize it yet because the Earth has a huge capacity to absorb our impact. Most people care more about the 19" rims on their new SUV than they do about whether future generations will be able to survive breathing the air. Human nature it to exploit everything we find. We're very ingenious and we find ways to solve amazing problems, but unfortunately in any balance there is a point from which you can not return. We tip the balance in our favour, but there is a loss somewhere.

To the average farmer such as yourself, there is no noticeable harm. But when the world is covered in farmers, we change the face of the planet. Look at the destruction of the rain-forests and tell me there are no losers. Sometimes it's very hard to find the loser in a given situation, but there is always a down-side. If there wasn't, there would be no gain either. The universe is a zero sum game.

This game is a microcosm so we see the impact of our actions much sooner. Fortunately we can just start over when the newest and greatest MOG shows up.

[edit for Tanwarv]
If you read my posts you'll see I'm not necessarily pro-nerf. I just don't want to see another great game die too early because of a runaway economy or to PL'ers. I'm all for people's desire to play the game however they like, except when that desire detracts from the enjoyment of others. Instanced adventuring removed griefing and KS'ing and the like, but unfortunately economic exploits remain in this otherwise stellar game. Albeit in limited fashion. Kudos to ANet for reducing it this far.

Personally I'd like to have a character with a spear, but I realize it's not possible in this game yet. Likewise, I respect your desire to play the game the way you want, but you might have to make sacrifices for the good of the game.

Koroh

Silmor · Aug 22, 2005, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Koroh, I'd just like to express my appreciation for the insight and patience you're displaying here, and I wish more people would look beyond just themselves to see their role in the economy and community. I've personally given up this argument because people defending their cash cow simply aren't willing to hear what someone else has to say, so I just keep hoping that ArenaNet will solve this issue before it spirals further out of hand, and in a way that doesn't punish the casual gamers for a change.

tanwarv · Aug 22, 2005, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koroh

The universe is a zero sum game.

I respect your view, but I don't agree with that philosophy. I also think the analogy between deforestation and moving pixels on a screen are a bit of a stretch.

Let's get back to the OP's topic at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koroh

I just don't want to see another great game die too early because of a runaway economy or to PL'ers. I'm all for people's desire to play the game however they like, except when that desire detracts from the enjoyment of others. Instanced adventuring removed griefing and KS'ing and the like, but unfortunately economic exploits remain in this otherwise stellar game. Albeit in limited fashion. Kudos to ANet for reducing it this far.

I was incredibly surprised at how little PL spam I see. Kudos to Anet for that, athough this game's version of PL'ing seems to be "running", which is quite rampant. Back to original subject, I still don't quite see how farmers are causing a runaway economy, as long as the things that will actually help people survive better (basic max armor and collector's max weapons) stay at a reasonable price. Maybe some more concrete examples of inflation would change my view.

simoo · Aug 22, 2005, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I think there's a great confusion between the microeconomics of price fluctions created by farming and the macro economics of Inflation in the whole GW in this forum.

Inflation is a macroeconomics issue of supply and demand for gold in GW. While the raises in price for any particular item is a simple micro supply and demand of that particular item. This are two completely different subjects.

Gold in GW, just as Money in our world, has 3 functions: unit of account, medium of exchange, and store of value. Inflation occurs when the value (price) of the gold decreases. And this happens when the gold supplied is more than gold demanded (simple supply and demand for gold itself). Then the question is how does these "new" money gets into the overall circulation to create inflation? In the real world, the price of money is defined by interest rate and this rate is extremely useful in defining the cost of borrowing and lending. And through borrowing and leading, the "new" money can easily sneak into the whole economy and thus create inflation (if you are interested in this area more, just look into your basic macro economy on money creation). However in our GW, since there's no borrowing and lending, the ONLY WAY for GW to create/pump more gold into its economy is through the drops for players when they killed foes. Assume this drop rate doesn't change, the rate of supply for gold into GW is fixed. This means more GW game activity (killing foes) a players has, the wealthier the player. When GW's gold is backed up by solid economics productions (foe's killed), and there's no other types of transaction for GW players to express their change in demand for gold, the price GW's gold is fixed. Thus, GW has no inflation. I believe this aspect of GW is not a free market.

As for prices changes of a particular item, both the supply and the demand for the item could change at any point in the game. When by chance, the particular items are being dropped more, the price of the item should drop because more people are selling it. This is where farming could create some situations. For example, a particular area is more ideal for farming compare to other places, and this area only drops certain type of items. Once this opportunity is acknowledged and fully explored, the whole GW world will be flooded by the drops of this area. Thus, eventually the price of these specific drops will decrease, which makes the area a undesirable area for farming. On the hand, if some items become trendy (more demand) due to the imbalance the item/the profession creates for foes and other players, or the different look, which the item provides, then the price should go up too. For example, rangers is a very popular profession due to its versatilities; with more rangers out there because every1 wants to take advantage of this profession's character, then the price of bows should go out.

I believe, for these types of transactions for specific items, they are all free market trading; thus the price could jump all over the place due to changes in the item's supply and demand at the particular moment. The price for the item is really a measure of the item’s relative scarcity and desirability.

Bottom line, inflation can be confirmed when the overall prices had gone up. Otherwise, the particular price changes of certain items only represent the changes of preference in supply and demand for that particular item. These two subjects are completely different.

OneArmedScissor · Aug 22, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Crying about farming is the most ridiculous thing ever...

That's like crying and complaining about people in real life making money by working.

simoo · Aug 22, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Agree!

EinValentine · Aug 23, 2005, 12:36 AM // 00:36

The economy (such as it is) in GW is pretty much entirely based on vanity. Since the addition of the various traders there are almost no functionally uber items unavailable to purchase at reasonable rates in this game. There are a rare few exceptions - a perfect Vampiric mod, for example is a pricey commodity and can certainly impact gameplay, and Monk Superior runes are off the hook just now, because of the popularity of the 55 build. But other than that and a few other possible exceptions everything you could possibly need to play effectively is easily in the budget of those who just play the game normally. As has been pointed out previously, you don't need a perfect 30 fortitude mod, the slightly lesser mods are very nearly as good and MUCH less pricey.

I've gone on a farming spree lately and gone from having about 40k spread between my characters to having approximately 800k (including the value of ectos).

How much has my ability to play the game increased?

Not an iota. Collector's weapons are there for the taking and in all the time I have spend playing and farming I have NEVER seen a weapon drop that bettered the basic stats of the top collector's items (not including the removable mods). Get a couple of half decent mods of your choice and pop them on a collector's weapon and you are set to play.

All the really big ticket items are vanity purchases. 15>50 Storm Bows aren't any better than any other 15>50 Bow - and with a little research you can go get whatever type of bow you want from a collector. And of course the biggest ticket items of all, the fissure armors, are entirely vanity. There is no functional difference between them and the Droknar's armor.

The economy in this game is almost entirely irrelevant to actual gameplay, provided you actually do a little research on collectors.

A very helpful link from the the Collector's thread in Community Works:
http://users.on.net/~telarin/index.htm

In the end, whether they nerf or don't nerf farmers, so long as collectors and traders exist basic gameplay will not be affected to any significant degree. The fact that people are willing to buy the Fissure Armor at all should be evidence enough that vanity is the engine of the economy here.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Another clone thread. Another tired, pointless debate. Another attempt by yours truly to point out the only time this "issue" exists in my life is when I read yet another cloned, tired, worn out thread about the "issue" which (I'm sure I will have to post again in 3 days hence) DOESN'T EXIST.

EinValentine · Aug 23, 2005, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by SOT

Another clone thread. Another tired, pointless debate. Another attempt by yours truly to point out the only time this "issue" exists in my life is when I read yet another cloned, tired, worn out thread about the "issue" which (I'm sure I will have to post again in 3 days hence) DOESN'T EXIST.

Go get drunk or something.

Phades · Aug 23, 2005, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhys ap Llysgwr

Look people, I farm runes solo, I farm griffons solo outside of augury, and I farm smites solo- all with my elementalist. Having played this game awhile and paying close attention to the economy I can tell you the general effects of farming in GW - it makes everything cheaper, it causes DEFLATION.

Farming causes inflation. This is partly due to the simple mechanics of introducing large sums of money into the game. The more money people have, the more likely they are willing to spend. Currently only the exp scrolls are the only non-renewable resource with a meaningful effect. There have been times when ive seen two of the scroll types out of stock. Considering that they are only a time saver for a pve character that is not interested in re-rolling and rushing through the game, i would find that as a strong indication of how much excess money people have to just toss around at will.

What you are observing is the fact that each character only needs to buy a weapon, rune, armor, and other items only once. If chracater armor, weapons, and runes expired over time, then you would notice massive inflation upon seemingly average items. This would be due to the fact that those "average" items would be used for everyday pve, while the pvp individuals wouldnt care as they would just re-roll and get fresh equipment.

The problem with runes, in this instance, is that the traders were given a very finite stock and combined with how making characters work, yeilds the possibility that every player in the game could potentially need or use one. This problem is compounded when you observe the cost of major runes versus their effect, when compared against superior runes. Then the issue is magnified, due to how random drops are and what selection of monsters yeild the possibility for the drop to occur.

I would personally argue that this game does not even have a working economy, as the resources become rather stagnant over time.

SOT · Aug 23, 2005, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinValentine

Go get drunk or something.

Oh come now, surely you can post why I need to with something more original that that. I mean seriously.

Was my post offensive or wrong?

Sit down before you hurt yourself.

DrSLUGFly · Aug 23, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

The Frog has no problems with the Honorable Farmer

Rhys ap Llysgwr · Aug 23, 2005, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

The Frog has no problems with the Honorable Farmer

Amen Brother

Theos · Aug 23, 2005, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by DrSLUGFly

The Frog has no problems with the Honorable Farmer

And then the question arises whether the 105/55 is actually supposed to be there, if not then its not honorable. If so then it is. :P

DrSLUGFly · Aug 23, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

People who find themselves invincible will soon find themselves surprised. Thus spake the Frog! (paraphrased mind you)

Silmor · Aug 23, 2005, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Let's keep this frog nonsense out of sensible threads, shall we? As with most religious texts, you can twist any 'saying' to mean whatever you want it to mean, so in the end you're just presenting your own opinion without any further argumentation, yet pretending to be speaking for ArenaNet.

DrSLUGFly · Aug 23, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

blasphemer... if you had read the Frog's you couldn't say that. The Frog tells truths whereas we simply speculate.

=HT=Ingram · Aug 23, 2005, 05:34 AM // 05:34

I'm not against farming as long as its done for personal use and you sell to NPC traders. thus maintaining the market for everyone else. What We object too is those that hoard them only to keep the price high, then sell to players and never making the price go down. This happens a lot still... Thus the Monk rune market out of stock. not from lack of runes either. its just those that have TONS of them don't sell to npcs so the availability never emerges, which keep the price at 30K plus for them.

The other factor is those that sell gold for real money. something that is strictly against the Rules of Conduct and the EULA. But it still happens. Personally I don't care as long as a player keeps themselves righteous. In other words, as long as they are not exploiting others in some way and they are playing the game as designed... then who cares. more power too you. If you enjoy this repetitive action so be it.

Just don't turn around and screw yourself and everyone else by doing something stupid to effect the market. I dump runes regularly on the nps just to be rid of them even for just 25 gold. Thus keeping them in stock. but every time I dump a superior monk rune on the market it is gone in seconds. Yet the one I need is NEVER Available cept from a player vendor. and that is unacceptable. Seeing as Players will scam another without thinking twice about it. So why should ANYONE trust another in the game. Some people actually believe they have a right to charge 200k for a superior Smiting rune. and call me a n00b for snubbing that price. Basically I tell them to go jump in a lake. Cause they need to cool off their ego.

Arenanet has assured us that future updates will lock down the trader market for more stability. but they have other things to attend too first. and I can understand this. I'm willing to wait for whatever they have planned. I'm expecting a type of vendor lock on supply and ceiling and floor on prices from what I was told. Hopefully this will cut the middle men out of the market and open up availability again for everyone.

DrSLUGFly · Aug 23, 2005, 11:06 AM // 11:06

When you compare botting issues with farming issues... farming seems like a pretty minor disruption in the economy. Someone spends hours getting gold and items to get themselves rich... another person spends 20 bucks and is hit in an instant with 500 plat... Here is where the economy's biggest problems lie.